Waving or Drowning?

I'll second the abandonment of the phrase. It makes it sound too much like one is counting notches on one's spiritual gunbelt. I knew one guy who claimed to have brought 200 people to baptism -- always wondered how many of those he actually managed to get in (or even near) the water. Of course, if one practices infant baptism, that takes care of that and elminates the need to carve those notches. Plus the child has their whole life to work on living a Christ-like life.

If one lives a life that is in Christ, one doesn't have to "win" someone else. They'll be knocking each other over trying to find out what one has got and how they can get it too.

"...counting notches on one's spiritual gunbelt"

I'm laughing because that is exactly the phrase thats been going through my head as I mulled this one over.

Now I have a preacher man/James Bond visual going. Somebody make it stop!

I can't help with the mental visual, but what it made me think of was that we aren't so differnt from Jehovah's Witnesses after all... walking around some booths at missionsfest could make one think that the bigger the booth, the better the ministry, the more souls won to Christ...

...the bigger one's castle in heaven (or the higher the level we reach once we get there).

Still trying to figure this group out. Seems a fair amount of discussion here is around what's wrong with how others express their Christian faith. How valuable is that exercise in judgement? Of course, by raising this issue, I seem to have joined the chorus myself.

Funny how that happens.

I probably can't properly articulate this, Brad, but I'll take a crack at it. When you have the uneasy feeling that "something" is wrong, that things aren't working anymore, the first part of the exercise is to try and figure out what. Shouild I be so negative? probably not. I do make a conscious effort not to be a complainer all the time.

It's also possible to err on the other side. Some have a gut reaction to anybody who tries to say thing's ain't working the way they used to. Or, in my own case, the things I used to believe were important are not any longer. Fear of change is a natural instinct for some, but fear of questions and questioning is something we should all resist.

We are back to the same old question:What IS a "Christian"? I meet lots of "saved" people who claim to own a Fire insurance policy from the Heavenly Fire insurance Co (33 C E)Inc. But Jesus called for DICIPLES who are in tune with and live out the philosophy of the beatitudes,his approach to money and "success" and our ultimate values. Where do we see the exercise of God-given authority that was given to his followers, especially in the gift of miracle-working prayer,evidence of the Holy Spirit and sacrificial love. Lots of bogus stuff around in Western Chrietianity I think that does a dis-service to the Kingdom. How many today will die for their faith in he Fareast. I wish to God it would happen here!
PS Too negative?? David

Dad you are never too negative!!! Seriously - i have come back to this post over and over = do i write a comment or dont i?? Yes i am trying to learn restraint.......however that said - here I go: I think i know where brad is coming from. We had this awesome sermon right around Christmas time and it struck me - it was all about knowledge - and how it is great and everything - but to go and do.....kind of like sitting and discussing isn't helping the problem. I hope this doesn't come off as a slam - I dont mean it that way - but sometimes we (and i mean me in here too) spend so much time crabbing about what we dont like that its hard to see what we do like....that there are positives to being a Christ follower. Yes there is a lot of stuff out there that can drive you nuts - but bottom line is that I love my Lord and I want to be out there showing him to others.

Hope that didn't come off as negative - just kind of where i am right now.
Heather

Heather
Great stuff and I fully agree.
It's where I am and probably a bit of old age showing up
David

One more and then I will shut up. This weeks sermon blew me away (they usually all do), but I just thought it was timely. Bottom line for me is that God wants me to delight in Him, in talking to Him, talking about Him, serving Him etc. one quote and then i'm gone
"Developing passion in our faith, like passionate kissing, is all a matter of focus".
I'm choosing my focus - and its going to be more positive.......
nuff said.
Heather
xoxoxo
p.s. you had to be there for the "give me a kiss" scenario by Bruxy - it was hilarious - but made a huge point all at the same time.

interesting conversation, although it's wandered way off from where I started.

If people are bothered by the fact that I said that the phrase "winning souls for Christ" shouldn't be used anymore, then I gather that means they think it should. Which means they think it has some valid meaning. Which means they should tell me what they think it is, and how it can effectively be used.

If it's more a case that they're bothered by the fact that I said there was "something" (could have been anything) that I didn't find useful, then that's a whole different kettle of fish. That was my point earlier. If we are suggesting that the church gets some kind of special dispensation from criticism because it's, well, the church, then I have a huge problem with that.

I don't suggest that the church get a special dispensation from criticism, just not hearing a lot of positives - thats where i am coming from.

Man - I don't check the page for a few hours and look what I miss!
Mike - back to your Feb 1 posting - to your second paragraph regarding the 'fear of change'.
We might look at change differently. When you suggest 'We should ban the use of the phrase...' That seems to me that you are definitley not showing a fear of change. In fact, you are all for change - someone else's change.
My original post was simply asking the question if it is a worthwhile use of energy to judge another's belief and then suggest a change. I'm with you all the way when you talk about the drive to continuely question. I'm all for that. Seems, though, that there's a difference between sequence 'Question - Judge - Suggest Change in Others' and what I might propose 'Question - Seek Answers - Change Self'
I just don't have the energy for suggesting changes in others when it takes all my energy to try to change myself.
Does that make any sense?

Apology - OK, I reread that last passage and it sounds sort of 'edgy' bordering on mean. It's not meant to be that way. I'll have to think of a softer way of doing this.
And, as I explained to Gord, Lynne and Heather yesterday in church that I really enjoy these discussions. I love the interactions and want to keep it on a civil plane - unless of course I find myself on the losing side - then all bets are off!

Dude - I'm all about the interaction, so no need to apologize!

I'm also all about questioning. I hear where you're coming from on that one, but I beg to differ. I'm a Christ-follower, I'm the church, so I am talking about changing myself.

Well I don't think we do any "winning"here as it isn't a contest but it sure is a love relationship and wooing would be what Jesus is trying to do. When you see someone in love you want that feeling too, so I guess I just want to be in love with Jesus and whatever osmosis happens from there is nothing to do with me but all to do with His love story that He wants to write in anybodies life.

Dude - I'll have to think about that one.

I still don't think we're tracking and I think it's because I need more information on your definition of 'church'. For me, I still see a difference between observing someone else's walk and suggesting a change and observing someone else's walk and noticing how it doesn't work for me - yet helps me reexamine and possibly change how I do things.

Brad, I think that's exactly what I said, or at least was trying to say. Here's a thought, I'll take a break from clarifying, and you tell me what you think!

Mike,

I think in practice we are on the same page. All's I'm saying is that observing and questioning are great. For me it's the path to a deeper understanding.

I think where I get a bit confused with some of the comments here is just in the way the observations are reacted to. I see a 'judgement'. For instance, I was prompted to join this discussion because of your opening comments that said we should ban the use of 'winning souls to Christ'. Why?

You might observe someone using it and question. You might try to explore the motives for them using it. You might even say, that you sure never plan on using it. But by suggesting it should be 'outlawed' seems a bit judgemental and harsh. To what end? What does it really matter if people conduct and express their spirtual Christian life differently than yours?
I think those differences are great. Because, by observing them and questioning it will sharpen my faith.
Does that make any sense? Truth is, I really have to battle personally with that tendancy to judge so I am probably a bit hypersensitive.

You see my dilema here though, don't you? This whole message is a judgement on how you express your faith. So, I'm guilty as well.

I also understand that there is another flaw - a slippery slope in my arguement. If I ban this judgement, what would I say about some fringe Christian believers who somehow came to the conclusion that God wanted child sacrafices. I would judge that. So where does it end? If it's just really really offensive? Where is that spot?

Truth is, Mike. I think I know where your heart is and we're on the same beat.

Yeah, maybe we're both not so bad after all.

I'll tell you though, Brad. My outlook has changed. I tend to frame things with a view now to how they look, feel and sound to the people walking by on the street.

I lump all this stuff under the banner of "God-talk". In a room full of Christians we love to use it. The problem is it tends to leak outside. How would your neighbour feel if he knew you were trying to "win his soul for Christ"? To be honest I'm actually at the point where I find it offensive.

Maybe we'll get a chance to talk more about it some time.

Thanks for refraiming it like that. When you talk about like discussions within a 'family' it is different.

Mike,

I have been reading your post about the use of "win or winning a soul for Christ". I can see where "Christianese" or "God-talk" could make some feel uncomfortable or even offend some. I must admit there are times when I don't fully understand why we talk the way we do. One thing I do know is that different groups of people have different expressions to communicate ideas. Christians are no different.

As fas as win someone to Christ, you are correct in that we don't win them to Christ, however Christ does use us to draw them back into the relationship they were intended to have to begin with. The word "win" is used for a purpose. It is not polictically correct to use some phrases, but whether we like it or not we are at war very literally with the forces of darkness. Christ came into the world to reclaim the right to us as people that Adam gave up because of sin. When we witness to someone and they are convicted of their sin and turn to a relationship with Christ, the forces of darkness have suffered a "loss" to their kingdom and the opposite is true that the kingdom of God has "won" a battle to reclaim a lost soul.

I don't intend to attempt to change your mind on your convictions about the use of "win a soul for Christ", but I have to tell you I serve in the US Navy as a Chaplain and I fight a fight every day for Christ. Somedays I win when I trust totally in Christ and other days when I stand in my own strength I lose. It is truly a spiritual war and as Christians we are on the front lines.

I hope not to have offended a brother, but I also hope you understand why some use the phrase in question.

Keep the faith and your eyes always in Christ.
Fred

Fred - thanks so much for your thoughtful comment.

As I read it I was struck by the reality that we don't really differ at all on "fact". I'm right with you on the issue of spiritual warfare. I'm right with you on the issue of wanting to introduce my friends to Christ.

It's much more subtle than that. I believe that we now live in a "post-Christian" culture. The days of everyone understanding the God-talk on some level, even if they weren't believers themselves, are over, or are ending very quickly. Those of us who have been Christians for some length of time are so used to the God-talk. We understand it (for the most part, as you pointed out). We know what we are implying when we we say some of these things.

More and more, though, the people "out there" don't know what we mean. More and more those who have determined that they will never set foot in a church would be more than willing to have a meaningful conversation about "spirituality". So can we change our speech to engage in that conversation, or will we stick to the tried and true gems, and thereby kill any chance of engaging them?

Obviously that's a huge generalization, but it's the best I can come up with right now! I'd be grateful for any response.

I've had a quick look at your ship's web site, So tomorrow morning while I'm observing Morning Prayer, my 'prayer for others' will be for you and the crew of the USS Cowpens.

Mike,

First, thank you for the prayers for our ship and crew. They do a great job, but put their lives on the line every day. One small misstep and they could be seriously hurt or even killed.

Second, you are correct on the fact that you and I are on the same page. To see people each and every day is quite a challenge, knowing they are lost and in need of a Savior. We are obligated, no compelled, to reach them any way we can. I believe Paul wrote that if what you are doing is a stumbling block to someone, knock it off so they see Jesus in you and don’t trip on your behavior (Romans 14). A little simplistic, but I think illustrates the point Paul was making.
I hear you when you say we have to choose our words to have meaning to those we are trying to reach. Some of the best evangelism experiences I had was in the French Quarter in New Orleans. You really had to avoid any kind of “God-talk” to those you were reaching. However, just as in any community each has a language of their own to help communicate what they are saying. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t it a missions fair that you were visiting. Maybe it was for reaching those without Christ and they should have used better terms to communicate what they were attempting. A phrase like “seeker service” or “block party” may have been less offensive and conveyed a better meaning, but if it was for the “home folks”, the meaning was clear.

Bottom line we are on the same page, just looking at it from a different prospective.

I will offer this in closing, most of the time “we’ as Christians need to get beyond our comfort zones to reach to those who desperately need Jesus. If that means changing some of our phrases to not offend, then so be it. However, sometimes we need to reframe from being overly sensitive among our brothers and sisters as well. You know what the saying is about a pet peeve, that is a peeve someone likes to pet.

God’s blessings to you during your day and keep challenging us.

Fred