Waving or Drowning?

Please pardon my ignorance. When you speak of "grace", to what exactly are you referring?
I have never been sure.

Right on!!!! I'm going to mentally refer to that post as Lisa's Doctrines.

Grace
She takes the blame
She covers the shame
Removes the stain
It could be her name

Grace
It's a name for a girl
It's also a thought that changed the world
And when she walks on the street
You can hear the strings
Grace finds goodness in everything

Grace, she's got the walk
Not on a ramp or on chalk
She's got the time to talk
She travels outside of karma
She travels outside of karma
When she goes to work
You can hear her strings
Grace finds beauty in everything

Grace, she carries a world on her hips
No champagne flute for her lips
No twirls or skips between her fingertips
She carries a pearl in perfect condition

What once was hurt
What once was friction
What left a mark
No longer stings
Because grace makes beauty
Out of ugly things

Grace makes beauty out of ugly things

Music: U2
Lyrics: Bono

Robert,
I've been chewing on your question for the past couple of hours. I refuse to give in to typical Christianese ways of describing Grace. To be honest, I think Grace is something that is experienced, not described. That's probably why it's so hard to quantify. The reason that I capitalized Grace is because Jesus is Grace. Jesus showed his love for us by dying on the cross. This love is undeserved, and unearned. It's a gift that cost me nothing, but cost God everything. That's Grace. And because God demonstrated the ultimate in Grace to me, He expects and thankfully helps me to extend the same to others.

What about truth?

What about him, Dan? Not sure what you're asking.

I walk with trepidation now:
There can be, don't you think, an emphasis on Grace that downplays Truth. Grace always gets the upper hand, Truth becomes a casualty. Grace invites, so we can find it easier to embrace. We can uphold it while still remaining "nice" "inclusive" "egalitarian" etc etc - all those Western values that we love in our postmodern world.
But Truth, now that gets a little sticky. Truth can separate, it implies there is something that is non-Truth and that can be offensive, a "stumbling block" to use a biblical metaphor.
Truth has often been used as a battering ram, taking the upper hand, while Grace languished. We reject that. It would be an all too human tendency to swing wide the other way, though, which would be just as damaging, although in a much "nicer, kinder" way.

I suspect that delving deep into the Personal nature of Truth and Grace is the way forward.

At the risk of sounding like Pomo-Boy... which truth? Your truth? My truth? His truth? Her truth?

Oh, you mean Truth! I'm with you, Dan. It's just at this stage in my life I'm figuring out that what I thought was Truth just turned out to be truth - mine, yours, somebody's.

I need some help with this one!

you think YOU need help?
I haven't had a clue what anybody has been talking about for days now...

hahaha...great thoughts from everyone. I love it. Maybe the first thing we need to be aware of in these conversations are the "answer-givers"-- those that are ready to dispense their take on things, prescribing an answer for all questions at a moment's notice.

I think in this discussion, most would agree that there is an essence of Truth so pure that our encapsulations of it can never be as pure or true as It is.

If that is the case, then we all imperfectly pursue our soul's longing for that which is perfect and absolute. because of our inherent subjectivity, it seems to me that the only way we can actually connect with God, Truth, and each other is through humility and grace. Grace, in some cases may be the brief glimpses of hope we are allowed, the moments of interaction with the divine we are given, or the posture that we are compelled to take on with each other, because of our limited vision and capacity for objectivity.

In that case, everything that I believe about what I cannot see--beyond what I've experienced--must be understood in the context of grace. We are not entitled to wrap our finite minds around the infinite, to speak on its behalf, nor should we place an emphasis of permanence on our finite understanding.

So we find ourselves not only thankful for the grace by which we've encountered God, but responsible to take on a posture of grace as we share our stories with others.

It's so simple--so beautiful. In the Story we find him making statements like "I am the way, the truth, the life." but somehow, we've turned that into "our understanding of him is The Truth". It's so easy to do. But it's not our doctrines, theologies, apologetics, etc that are Truth. Isn't it interesting that even the person that called himself "The Truth", jacked with "the truth" that the religious people of his day held so deear by saying things like "Everything you believe is summed up by just loving your God...and the people around you with all your abilities." I love it.

Robert, I'm not quite sure what grace looks like either--only that I know i don't show enough of it to people. But I have a feeling that grace may look something like what happens when humility is moved by love to serve the lives of those around her.

Beautiful Mike--thanks for pushing me.

okay getting wayyyy too deep for me - all I know (and thats not a lot - the more i learn the more i realise i know squat).... that I don't deserve Gods grace - He gave up His son for all of us - but that i've accepted his gift...and on a really good day hopefully I can show grace to someone else and they can see a tiny sliver of Christ in me ..... on a really good day (today however - has really not been one of those good days).
Got to admit you kind of lost me on the truth, Truth thing......

I think I am starting to get what you are all describing and if an atheist can experience Grace, then I have tonight. I have been reading your comments with a really fat 5 month-old alternatingly cooing and singing sitting in my lap. What a wonderful fat kid.

Yes, Robert, I think Grace is experienced in ways like you've described. The kind of "'oh-my-God-I-don't-deserve-this-this-is-so-unbelievably-amazing-I'm-deeply-grateful-I'm-a-part-of-this" feeling.

Robert, you've got it. That's so beautiful. Thanks.

Man, I've seen pictures - that kid IS fat! What a perfect description, Robert.

I like Jared's take on the truth thing. I think in this discussion, most would agree that there is an essence of Truth so pure that our encapsulations of it can never be as pure or true as It is.

I'm not knocking the "truth" question - far from it. Our lives should be a quest for truth... for just what Christ was talking about while He was here. However, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to shake our own "encapsulations" of truth. In a strange way I guess thats another example of Grace. Christ helps me on that quest, even though I'll probably never be able to shake my own biases and preconceived notions of what truth is.

I know I'm late to this party, but would anyone mind if I yelled Amen?

AMEN!

I like the fact that Jesus is referred to in John 1 as the man full of grace and truth. A healthy balance I feel. They work in tandem and we desperately need both - whose truth? God's I guess as he reveals it to us. We can only do what we can with what we have...

I like number 9!

That's my favorite too.

Hope I'm not too late to comment on this one but Robert, man, you're bang on! I will say til the day I die that I've come to know the grace of God through my wife & kids. The fact that I don't deserve the love I receive, yet, they shower me with it. Sometimes I don't love God like I should; sometimes I don't love my wife like I should; sometimes I don't love my kids like I should; and, sometimes I don't love life like I should - despite my lack of love - God loves me like I'm an only child; my wife loves me like I'm the greatest husband; my kids love me like I'm the best dad; and, I'm still alive to receive this undeserved grace! WOW!!!!

I was thinking as I drove home from a meeting today that the Grace in my life has been extended lately to include all the good people I have met through this medium.

You have all had a very profound impact on my life.

PS: Thanks for the book! (you know who you are!)